Question Booster use w/ sewn-on latchplate system?

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but in no way new to the world of carseats. I have 3 kiddos, ages 8, 5.5 & 4. I was a CPST up until about 6 years ago, when pregnancy & back problems prevented me from participating in seat checks, so I let my certification lapse.

DS, age 5.5 needs a new seat to replace an expired Marathon for DH's '89 Suburban. It's something of a CPS nightmare.....no headrests in any of the 2nd & 3rd row seats, lapbelts in the 2 center positions, harnessed seats have to tether to 3rd row seatbelts, and now I've discovered a new issue.....the 2nd row outboard seats have lap/shoulder belts which are individually sewn onto the latchplate. The lap and shoulder portions each have their own retractors. The lap retractor is ALR, so installing a harnessed seat has never been an issue. However, in the world of boosters....

I've been trying to decide between a Regent, Frontier or Nautilus for DS. Because of the no headrest issue, I want to keep him & his younger sister harnessed as long as I can and then move him to the tallest HBB available when he outgrows whatever I decide on. If we go with a Regent, the 4yo will need to inherit it when her Marathon expires in about 2 years, at which point DS would probably go into a booster, as I can't see buying yet another harnessed seat for a then 7yo. In looking through the Frontier user's manual, it states that it should not be used with "lap-shoulder belts that have separate retractors for the shoulder and lap sections....
(subpoint 1) Unless the lap belt retractor can be locked.....
(subpoint 2) You cannot use this type of belt with this child seat in booster mode." This is new info to me!!

So on to the Nautilus manual...same restriction, but without the subpoints. So then I went back to look at 8yo's Parkway manual...same restriction (not good, as this is what she rides in in the truck). We have a Recaro Young Style, not currently in use. Someone has removed the manual , and Recaro's website only lists user's guides for their current lineup. The Vivo and Start manuals I looked at online only state that a 3-point system must be used, with no further restrictions listed. Can someone with a Young Style manual check this out for me?

So I guess my real question is WHY is a sewn-on latchplate a no-no with a booster? There doesn't seem to be issue with the same setup with a locking latchplate (in fact the Nauti manual specifically says it's okay). I'm trying to figure out how this would be different....the lapbelts are both locked and the shoulders belts are ELR. Is the issue that a lapbelt in ARL will continue to cinch tighter as a child moves around in the booster? Is Recaro's apparent silence on the issue to be taken as permission or an oversight on their part? (I emailed them, but I'm too anxious to wait for a response).

If need be, any kids in boosters (i.e 8yo and friend) can go into the 3rd row outboard seats, which have lap/shoulder w/locking latchplate, OR see if 3 Regents will fit across the 2nd row bench. Because any 2nd row harnessed seats have to tether to the 3rd row seatbelts, the inability to use a booster in the 2nd row means I can only transport a max of 4 kids instead of 5, as I had envisioned. Oh well.....

Sorry this got long winded. Any help or insights would be greatly appreciated. Here are the kids' stats.

8yo DD, 52" tall, 56 lbs
5.5 DS, 47" tall, 44 lbs
4yo DD, 40" tall, 35 lbs

Thanks,
Cherie

I don't have an answer for you about the sewn-on latchplate, but I think if I were you, I'd get a Regent for your oldest considering everything else involved - it will harness longer than anything else (not special needs) on the market and solve your problem for a while.

mom2kc&k said:

In looking through the Frontier user's manual, it states that it should not be used with "lap-shoulder belts that have separate retractors for the shoulder and lap sections....
(subpoint 1) Unless the lap belt retractor can be locked.....
(subpoint 2) You cannot use this type of belt with this child seat in booster mode." This is new info to me!!

Click to expand...

But your lap portion can lock, since it's ALR. It sounds like the manual is reference the belts with a retractor that does not lock, which are pretty rare and require a belt shortening clip

Thanks. I actually have a Regent on order to try for DC #2, who really needs a new seat for both of our vehicles ASAP. (Had 2 convertibles expire recently, and the youngest needs the 2 remaining Marathons.) The oldest can go into the 3rd row in the PW until we get #2 situated in something. Debating on whether I should also order a Frontier & Nautilus to compare in case the Regent doesn't install well. Finances really aren't allowing for more than a couple of new seats at this time, one of which will have to go in my Sienna.

The real issue is booster use in the 2nd row. Hopefully Recaro will respond to my email soon. I found my Young Style manual, and, like the current Recaro boosters--- lap belts, motorized belts and passive systems that attach to the door are the only prohibitions mentioned (besides the obvious ones like sideways and backwards facing vehicle seats). If I can use a Recaro booster in the 2nd row, the problem is solved, as I can put 2 more kids in boosters in the 3rd row outboard seats and have the ability to transport up to 5 kids on carpool days and for camping trips.

Still, if anyone else has any insights on the sewn-on latchplate issue, please let me know.

An Aurora,

I was answering Gypsy when your response came through.

The way the Frontier manual formats this point is a bit confusing. It states that a belt with 2 retractors should not be used. Then there are 2 bullet points below that. The first talks about "except if the lap belt locks." This makes sense for a harnessed seat, so no problem there. I've had harnessed seats in those positions for years. What isn't crystal clear is the 2nd bullet point that says this type of belt system should not be used in booster mode. Does the exception in bullet point one also apply to bullet point 2, thereby allowing booster mode IF the lap belt locks? I'm guessing not, but again, it isn't really clear, and could be interpreted either way. That's when I started looking the manuals for other dedicated HBBs and found wording that simply states that a dual-retractor system shouldn't be used...period, no exceptions listed. This was the wording for boosters for previous Britax models, the Monterey, and the Nautilus. Only Recaro doesn't list a prohibition, which is good for my situation, but also seems to cloud the issue a bit more due to the inconsistency with the other manufacturers.

I emailed this thread to Sarah Tilton, our Britax rep who's on the forums. Hopefully she'll respond soon and answer the question because it has a few of us befuddled.

I had a 90 Suburban and you can get three Regents across the second row. Actually I had two Regents, but with one in the center 2nd row, I could put the other one on either side without moving the center one at all, so I see no reason why you can't do three.


That being said, *I* would get a Regent and a Frontier, rather than two Regents. Put DD1 in a Regent, DS in the Frontier in harness mode and DD2 in the MA. When somebody outgrows something you can give the Frontier in BPB mode to DD1 (the Frontier is the tallest booster on the market. 5'5" me fits into it) put DS in the Regent, and get another Frontier for DD2 when she outgrows the MA or it expires. Then when DS outgrows the Regent, or DD2 outgrows the Frontier in harness mode, switch those two around. As the older two switch to booster mode in the Frontiers you can move them to the third row. Once all three kids outgrow harnesses together you may have to make the tough choice to use a second row belt for a BPB.

I personally made the parental choice to use a booster with the 2nd row seat belts for my oldest who was too tall for any harnessed seat. It seemed the lesser of two evils to my mind.

I thought it might help if you had a pic posted, so those who aren't familiar with this type of seatbelt can see it.

Is it like this? (This one's from my '97 Chevy Astro.)

Defrost said:

I thought it might help if you had a pic posted, so those who aren't familiar with this type of seatbelt can see it.

Is it like this? (This one's from my '97 Chevy Astro.)

Click to expand...

Exactly!!

safeinthecar said:

That being said, *I* would get a Regent and a Frontier, rather than two Regents. Put DD1 in a Regent, DS in the Frontier in harness mode and DD2 in the MA. When somebody outgrows something you can give the Frontier in BPB mode to DD1 (the Frontier is the tallest booster on the market. 5'5" me fits into it) put DS in the Regent, and get another Frontier for DD2 when she outgrows the MA or it expires. Then when DS outgrows the Regent, or DD2 outgrows the Frontier in harness mode, switch those two around. As the older two switch to booster mode in the Frontiers you can move them to the third row. Once all three kids outgrow harnesses together you may have to make the tough choice to use a second row belt for a BPB.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm leaning towards something similar to that. The Regent should be here on Saturday. The intent is to have DS use it for now and at some point it will pass down to DD2, keeping the center position of the 2nd row (lap belt) usable as long as possible. For now, DD2 has the Marathon until it expires in 8/2010 (unless of course she outgrows it first). DD1 just got a SK Monterey which was going to go in my van, but it actually works beautifully in the 3rd row of the Suburban, which I can't say has been true of her other boosters. (The angle and tension of the shoulder belt back there is weird and tends to want to tip HBBs over....the Monterey is very stable and the shoulder belt doesn't hang up in the belt guide, so I'm actually quite excited about that!)

I did order a Frontier last night. I know ideally, when considering only the Suburban, DD1 should get the Regent and DS the Frontier. But then I don't have a harnessed seat for DS in my van since his little sister's FPSE just expired and she had to take his other Marathon. (Remember, I can only buy 2 harnessed seats right now). DS has been in a booster in the van for the past month or so and is not proving his ability to sit properly at this time. He needs to go back into a harnessed seat. Hopefully the Frontier will install well in the van ('05 Sienna). I feel much more comfortable having DD1 use a booster in the Suburban than DS using one in any vehicle right now. Also pushing me in this direction is that DH tends to get a little lax with proper usage the more harnessed seats he has to deal with. He gets in a hurry, and harnesses don't always get properly tightened, chest clips out of position, tethers and belts loosen up and don't get retightened as often as I'd like. :thumbsdown: Yeah, I think reintroducing a 3rd harness to his mix would just open the door for misuse for everybody, even if DD1 can properly buckle and unbuckle herself. DD1 sits really well in a booster. She's been in one for 2 years now in my van, and at 8 yrs old, she's less than thrilled about the prospect of being reharnessed. Besides, she absolutely LOVES her Monterey.

I still haven't figured out how we're going to deal with the the weekly carpool with my daughter's friend and guests tagging along on camping trips. I thought I could put a 2nd booster on the drivers side of the 3rd row, but the tether from the Marathon in front of it angles across the area where the front corner of the booster would go. (I'll try to get pics of that and start a new thread tomorrow, as I can't decided if what is happening there is okay or not). I have to tether to the 3rd row seatbelts. I do what skaterbabscpst does in her Suburban....one seat tethered to the hole in the center position buckle and one seat tethered to the center position latchplate with the GM-provided tether adapter.

Still, I REALLY want to know the WHY behind not being able to use that 2nd row belt for a booster, so that I could make an informed parental decision about it. Still no response from Recaro. Hoping Heather's Britax contact comes through soon with some info.

BTW, DH is finally coming to terms with the fact that although not having a car payment is nice, we will, at some point in the next 5 years, have to get a different vehicle!

Thanks everyone for their kind responses.

Cherie

Hello all- SORRY for the delay in responding....holidays and vaction.......

You all pose a very a good question about booster mode and why it couldn't be used.

Unfortunatelt I would like to check with our test lab and our engineer of this product before providing a formal response. So - unfortunately I will have to wait until next week (week of January 5th) before I can do so. I will try to follow-up as quickly as possible - it will depend on the availability of the people I need to talk with and their return from the holidays.

Happy New Year!

Thank you, Sarah. I will be watching for your reply.

Cherie

as will I... we used to have a car with those types of latchplates... I made the parental decision with my turbobooster to use the belt... because I could barely fit the turbo in there with two other seats, let alone if I'd tried a Regent... which was what we had for the boys in my car.

when I put them in this car, all of one time they rode in it when they had to, it was before we even got the Regents, anyway... so it was a rf Scenera, ff Marathon, and then the turbo... which I had to slide sideways partially off the seat, buckle, then slide back.

and after that one time, we never let the kids all ride in it together again... because the one seatbelt kept getting locked all the way in... and I didn't want the baby behind the driver because Jeffrey was at a phase where he thought it was funny that he could kick her in the head if he wanted to from his higher seating position.

anyway... then we got dh a new car, so it was moot.

I think honestly I would make the parental choice to use the seatbelt if I had to, but I would rather have approval.

Is the shoulder belt retractor an ELR?

An Aurora said:

Is the shoulder belt retractor an ELR?

Click to expand...

Yes, shoulder belt ELR, Lap belt ALR

Ok, thanks, then I'm not seeing the problem at all with using a booster there .

On the behalf of Britax, I would like to provide a little information that may provide better insight for the statement “Three-point seat belts with separate retractors for lap and shoulder sections are NOT compatible” with our booster products.

We understand that 3-point seat belts with separate retractors for lap and shoulder sections exist, but that there are a limited number of vehicles that remain with this type of system.

Our tests with the three point belt system simulate a single switchable retractor. Therefore, three-point belt systems with separate retractors for lap and shoulder sections are NOT compatible with our booster products because we do not test these products with dual retractor belt systems.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sarah Tilton
Britax CHild Safety

Thanks for the response, Sarah. So, essentially, it's the usual "it hasn't been tested that way" answer (which of course needs to be respected). That's tough, when there doesn't seem to be a logical reason a belt of that type should cause a problem.

Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate you looking into this and giving the official answer. And I do understand the "not being tested that way" logic. But, based on what you just said, Britax boosters haven't been tested with a lap/shoulder system that has a locking latchplate (which is what's in the 3rd row) either, but that use is *not* prohibited. That is very confusing to me. Unfortunately, now I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a booster anywhere in this vehicle. My oldest is too tall for anything but a Regent, and I'm having a HORRIBLE time trying to get one to fit, for a variety of reasons that belong in a separate post. I just don't know what to do now.

And for harnessed seats in that dual-retractor position......my understanding is that because the lap belt can be locked down and is isolated from the shoulder belt retractor, you basically create an installation that is more similar to a lap-only installation. So, if I was installing a Regent or Frontier, would I treat it as a lap belt and therefore be limited to SBP only?

I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative. I just need to be able to wrap my head around the reasons behind the rules and find something that works....quickly!

Cherie

Sent you a PM.